Mark Hossler
Mark Hossler, of Negativland, toured Australia in April 1998 to promote
Negativlands new album Dispepsi and to open the film
The Add & the Ego for which Negativland did the soundtrack.
He also did a series of talks, which involved audience Q&A sessions.
For this Pig Meat interview the audience unknowingly play the roll of
Pig.
PIG: I was just wondering about the Dispepsi artwork, have you
had any trouble with it?
Mark: When we were working on the project we were very concerned
about what may happen when it came out. We thought there was a 50/50 chance
that Pepsi might hear it and let it go, or they might hear it and sue
our arse. So we actually had a number of eternise giving us advice including
Allen Corn. Basically what the lawyers said was that if you dont
want to get sued, dont put the record out. But if youre going
to put it out choose your battles wisely, and you dont want to get
sued for trade mark infringement. Theres a difference in America
with trade mark law and copyright law. Copyright law has this concept
of far use, a little wriggle room and obviously Negativland is arguing
that we want to expand that wriggle room to include art, not just news
and commentary. The trademark law has no concept of fair use at all and
theres no legal precedent that you can go on, theyll just
kill you. We had a lot of different designs for the cover, in the end
we decided to go with this thing were we had noticed that the ancient
Yin-Yang symbol owned by (as far as I know) no one, looks remarkably familiar,
and we thought wed use that, their colour, and lettering style,
and it evokes the whole thing. The attorneys said Well, they could
go after you for trademark infringement for even having the word Pepsi
anywhere on the cover. If they sued us, we wanted to force Pepsi
into suing us for copyright infringement, and not trademark infringement.
Because copyright infringement would be a good case, worth fighting over,
trademark would be just ridiculous. We ended up coming up with a solution
to this problem, one that we preferred over the original idea. We decided
to have the title appear as scrambled up letters, the letters that spell
the word Dispepsi. If you wanted to know the actual title you had to call
the Negativland hotline, you get a tape recording that tells you the name
of the record. Which, I guess is a little more complicated and expensive
for people from Australia. As it turns out Pepsis lawyers got a
hold of it, gave it a listen, seemed to be concerned, and perplexed by
what the hell we were doing, but actually decided to do nothing. We had
the bizarre experience of being in a mainstream Hollywood magazine called
Entertainment Weekly - a magazine like your Who Weekly. We ended up being
a little news story were the Pepsi spokesperson said No, we have
no intention of suing Negativland, weve hear the record, its
no Odelay, but its a pretty good listen. I think that was
Pepsis attempt at trying to seem a little hip or something. Thats
interesting to us because you can take it a number of ways:- Are the arrows
were throwing at these people not doing anything any more, and theyre
just shrugging it off. We threw this bloodied piece of meet into the shark
infested waters and the sharks just didnt care. We kind of saw this
as being positive, if some number of people heard that something like
this was made and a company as large as Pepsico (whos the worlds
second largest softdrink manufacturer) just decided to let it go. Wether
they like it or not, decided Gee, I guess this is just some kind
of art thing, or free speech thing and well just leave it alone,
if we sued them itll just give them more publicity. In the
US there are many efforts right now to push through even more draconian
laws, theyve just extended copyright another 25 years past the life
of the creator (it was the life of the creator plus 25.) Nothing thats
even made in my lifetime will ever come into the public domain. In the
real world theres more and more people whore doing stuff in
all mediums. The more that people do it, the more these companies (who
own all this culture) will be forced to think a little bit more, because
they dont want to waste all their money on lawyers when its
not piracy and its not bootlegging, its something different.
Lately Negativland has been talking about this and thought that were
never going to talk to Congress, were not going to lobby Washington
DC and were feeling like, fuck it, we cant change the laws
through any acceptable channels, the system isnt going to work for
us, but what we can do is live our lives and create stuff as if the world
is the way we want it to be, which is a pretty good way to change anything.
We just continue to work this way and ignore the laws. In one case we
got so much publicity that we embarrassed some people so bad because they
went after us, we might have a reputation now that a lot of companies
will say Just leave them alone, theyre just big trouble.
Pig: Can you envisage corporations such as Pepsi utilising your
format for advertising?
Mark: We wouldnt be surprised if they came to us and suddenly
started offering us money to use something off the Dispepsi record in
an add. For a few years now theres been quite a few ads where theyre
trying to look cyclical; anti-corporate corporate adds, theyre adds
that say Hey, we know that you know, that this is just an ad and
that this is all just bullshit, but because were letting you know
that we know that you know that... ha ha ha maybe youll buy our
product anyway. Its a very cleaver strategy, its extremely
cynical. Weve even been contacted by the advertising agency that
does Nikey and Microsoft, and they wanted to hire Negativland to do ads
for Miller Genuine Draft Beer. When we turned them down I said We
could never do it, it doesnt matter how much money you offer us,
we would have no integrity left, and no one would take us seriously. On
top of all that the beer tastes terrible. Fringe ideas are always
absorbed into the mainstream, this is always going to happen, so its real
interesting to me to see it happening, but when its happening to something
Im part of its really depressing and kind of shocking. I told him
on the phone call; I said God, Im totally depressed that you
called Our style has now become fodder for selling beer and they
were happy to have us do an anti ad ad. They ended up making an ad that
actually sounded like they got someone and played them some of our stuff
and said copy that. Were in a really weird period at the moment,
theres no avant-garde, whatever that used to mean, its gone because
the advertising industry has absorbed every single style, every experimental
film technic every invented is in an ad now. One of the other changes
thats happened to me is a qualitative change is that theyre
not just absorbing oppositional ideas and different types of approaches
and aesthetics, theyve now figured out that the very idea of any
kind of opposition at all, it doesnt matter what form it takes,
theyre ready for it. Ive just been reading a book by Sue Gallep(?)
The re-enchantment of art which is real interesting because
shes trying to look beyond that; what happens when all those ideas,
which maybe seemed to make a lot of sense at one point are just becoming
dead ends. Shes suggesting to stop looking at making things that
are de-constructing and instead re-constructing, and what does that mean?
I dont really even know either, for Negativland, we couldnt
keep making records like Dispepsi, theres a cretin point where...
Personally I want to see that Im doing work thats not just
ripping things down and ripping them up and re-arranging them, but making
things that are about stuff that Im for, not just stuff that Im
against. Not just reacting, and always feeling like a little soft creature
going through the world being stuck with pins all the time, and reacting
against it. Thats the sort of area that Negativland definitely mulling
about, the various projects that were working on now that will be
taking really different directions, and probably some of the people who
like the stuff were doing, all the anti-corporate stuff will be
very disappointed with what well be doing in the future.
Pig: Positivland?
Mark: That names taken unfortunately, by Greg Ginn, otherwise
Id want to use it.
Pig: Why did you choose Pepsi over Coke, are they more stupid
in your opinion?
Mark: It tastes better. The real reason we chose Pepsi over Coke
is that we were working on a piece called A Most Sucessful Formula
and we noticed that we had all this stuff that related to celebrities
in Pepsi ads. Then I asked Don what else do we have in our archive, weve
got these enormous labelled, already edited, and sifted through archives
of audio that comes from doing our weekly radio show, which has been going
on since 81. Every week theres a theme of some sort that we
pull all this material together, once weve done a show we keep all
this stuff that we generated for it. When we work on our studio albums
weve got this immense pool of material to dip into. So, Don went
digging around and came up with all this Pepsi stuff, so to speak. It
seemed we could make a few pieces out of this, and the more we though
about it, it just kind of grew and grew. It turned out that we just about
had all the Pepsi commercials, which we didnt realise, we had commercial
campaigns going all the way back to the 40s, all these interviews.
Pepsi kind of appealed to us to because its kind of iconically nicer,
its got this youth thing, theyre the cola for the young, theyre
the under-dog cola - I like the idea of attacking the under-gog. Any messages
in our work, any meaning that were trying to communicate is secondary
to the aesthetics, the first thing is making a collage art thing, it supposed
to be an aesthetic experience. The fact that theres a lot of meaning,
social, political, ethical and corporate stuff in there is super important
and obviously if you listen to what we do, were totally aware of
it and its intentional but it is secondary. We want it to be something
that is cool, weird, neat, fun, experience. We thought that focusing on
one company would produce an interesting project, and might in fact produce
an audio work thats sort of visculaly simulates the way that I feel,
in the US, as far as how much Im bombarded by advertising.
Pig: How do you find advertising comperes in Melbourne to that
of the US?
Mark: I cant tell you how different it is to walk around
the streets of Melbourne compared to a city of similar size in the US.
One thing is that Im not worried about everyone having guns, and
Two - there arent words everywhere, there just arent as may
bill boards with messages just hitting me every where I go. I realise
when Im in a place like this where you dont haves so many
or in Hawaii where theyre not allowed to advertise, that you expend
a lot of energy that you dont notice youre expending just
shutting that out. If youre literate youre going to read,
if you see a word it doesnt matter wether youre ignoring it
or having a conversation about something else, if you see that word on
some level it goes in. Thats part of the way advertising works,
you dont really have to be paying attention to it. Its also why
since the invention of the mute button that most ads on TV have got a
tremendous amount of words in them now, and thats because they know
youre zapping the mute button on, they hope that if you happen to
be in the room at least youll read the words.
Pig: Whats your opinion on the recent splurge of advertising
campaign that are self promoting such as the What would life be
without advertising, campaign.
Mark: Yeah, I saw that one the other night. Its scary. Thats
so blatant, theres nothing subtle about that at all.
Mark: The thing thats happening is that we now have, what
I consider be like an alien life form thats invaded the planet called
corporations. Theyre behold to no one, they are immortal and want
to own control and profit from things into infinity. Theres not
time limit thatll ever make them happy, because the corporation
will last forever. I dont know what legally a corporation in Australia
is but in the US its the corporate structure which encourages profit for
the sake of profit and has no ethical or moral sense to it what-so-ever.
I think that the American corporate model is the one thats spreading
all over the planet and it is directing all the economic agreements that
are coming up. If you havent heard of M.A.I. (Multi Lateral Agreement
on Investment) you should be scared to death by this thing. Its the most
Orwellian thing Ive ever heard, its basically a secret agreement
which if you havent heard about, its because they dont want
you to hear about it. Its corporations basically saying we dont
like this NAFTA and this GAF stuff, we didnt get what we wanted
out of it so fuck it! Lets make our own agreement and forget about the
governments and just have our own agreements amongst ourselves and were
so big and powerful as economic engines that everyones going to
have to come and get behind us once weve made these agreements amongst
ourselves, you wont be able to play ball unless you do it the way
we want to. Thats happening right now. An example is if your country
has some environmental laws which impact on the corporations ability to
maximise profit then your environmental laws go out, because the most
important thing is that the corporations make as much money as possible.
When I talk about it, I feel like I sound like some sort of crackpot.
Pig: Why is there only on e in Negativland? Your not implying
that you drop e?
Mark: No, were a lot older than that. In pop rock years
Im a dinosaur now, Im 36 year old. The answer to thats
a bit long and boring, we just liked how it looked better that way. Regardless
of the specifics of what Negativland has ever done we always enjoy doing
things that are playing around with peoples minds. Its a little experiment
to see if people are paying attention, is this a U2 record or what is
it? We did a whole tour where at the beginning of every show we announced
that someone had died. Its real interesting and fun to play around with
what people think in real and not real. The whole axe murderer hoax thing
we did, lots of people who were following us totally believed it. One
thing thats great is that we get letters from people who say Dear
Negativland, I love your music, you guys are so great, right on, keep
doing what youre doing, I love you, I have all your records,
and they spell the name wrong. I dont disbelieve they love what
we do, but I think thats really interesting, they didnt even
notice that. Its turned into this thing thats an interesting
little test to see if anyones paying attention.
Pig: What are the intrical Negativland beliefs?
Mark: Its funny that Ive gotten drawn into doing these talks
and stuff like that because really the way we work as a group, we dont
discuss what were doing very much at all. Ive done this since
I was a teenager and its just always kind of made sense. Once we got sued
we got sucked into having to articulate to ourselves and we had a great
chance to articulate to the public all this stuff and its been really
good for us to do it. Its far more intuitive than that. You get ideas
and you just follow them, in a lot of ways I didnt want to do a
whole record about corporations, with the Dispepsi record, but it just
obviously was a good idea. For me personally thats a way Ive
always been, this needs to happen, someone needs to do it, no one else
is going to do it so I guess Ill have to do it myself.. thats
going to be a lot of work. In the last few years Ive been making
trips, when I can, out to the South West deserts of the US and Im
absolutely blown out of my mind when I go visit there. Its so beautifu,
incredible and moving, so weve started doing field recordings out
there of the plants and insects and banging on cactuses and also collecting
funny old stuff related to the desert. We ended up with all these educational
films from the 40s. The found aesthetic keeps coming back, I dont
even know how we can get rid of it, but Im real excited about doing
a project all about a place that I love, a place thats moving, I
dont exactly know what direction the records going to take but,
anything that Im really moved by powerfully wether it negatively
or positively, if I follow that Im sure that itll produce
good work, I just feel sure of it, I always have. Whats changed
is that Id like to do some work thats about stuff that Im
for, opposed to something Id like to see destroyed.
Negativworldwidewebland
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